Transcript of the December 1967
KSL Management Meeting


The following is a transcript of a meeting which occurred in the Salt Lake City offices of KSL radio just prior to the Nitecaps entering into an affiliation agreement with KXIV in Phoenix.

The meeting was recorded on an old reel-to-reel tape which was discovered in the Salt Lake City area in 2000.

If you know any of these people, or can provide any insight into the context of the meeting, please contact me!


Joseph G. Buchman, Ph.D.
175 Paradise Road
Park City, Utah 84098

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Voices identifiable on the tape include:

Joe Kjar - General Manager of KSL

Edna (Unknown) Joe Kjar's assistant

Dar Dodds, Nitecap Trustee

Justin Stewart, Nitecap Attorney

Dale (Unknown), Justin's assistant?

Don Klause, KSL Program Director?

Curt (Unknown), Nitecap assistant?

Morrie (Unknown), KSL Chief Engineer (via telephone)


Dar Dodds: Alright, now, we're back on this "products and services have to mutually agreed upon" and that should be inserted in this contract. Now Joe, let me ask this. Suppose Phoenix decides to take their own news broadcast, or use Herb's news and cuts away for advertising. That's out? I mean that's up to them to approve. They want to put beer on that, we can't control what they put on their own advertising, can we?

Joe Kjar: No I don't think you can.

Dar Dodds: I mean I wanted to clarify that under your control . . .

Joe Kjar: Well here again, I think you ought to be careful gentlemen. I certainly . . . . For example, we never accept any wines or liquors. Now that's generally true in the industry. Although a broadcaster has been known to accept liquors and whiskey and so forth, but I think this is one area where probably we'd ask you . . .

(Unknown): To use every effort to keep them from . . .

Joe Kjar: I think we'd say, wines and liquors, probably no dice.

(Unknown): We don't want to get them associated with Herb . . .

Don: No the idea is that you'd be defeating the thing that you're trying to do. You've got a certain audience out there and I'll be danged if you'd want to be airing beer to that particular audience and be associated with Herb. You just wouldn't want it.

(Unknown): The problem here is a reverse contract . . .

Joe Kjar: I don't agree with you on beer, Don. I think beer you could get by with.

Don: But I don't think we would want to get by with it.

Joe Kjar: Well that's up to you. But as far as I am concerned, I think the only ones that I would except, and I put it down here, is wines and liquors.

Don: The way I feel about it, Joe, is like being a little bit pregnant.

Joe Kjar: Now that's up to you.

(Unknown): Well, Don, it's a reverse control problem. We go to Phoenix and they say we're going to cut away in this news broadcast . . . or if we buy it all, then we control it.

(Unknown): You control it.

(Unknown): See those guys can't run anything . . .

(Unknown): We might negotiate with someone where they will what to retain the broadcast.

(Unknown): We're not going to do it that way.

(Unknown): Alright.

Joe Kjar: Do you want to say wines, liquors and beer is prohibited?

(Unknown): As far as I'm concerned, Dar, what do you think?

(Unknown): I don't think you should . . .

(Unknown): This is what he said, wines and liquors.

(Multiple voices.)

Joe Kjar: Just put it right here.

Edna: Black?

(Unknown): I think we can agree on this wines and liquors and we respect your . . . If a beer thing comes up, we're sure going to consult with you.

Edna: Cream?

(Unknown): Thank you very much Edna, appreciate it.

Edna: You're welcome, I hope that, let's see, will you?

Joe Kjar: I'll pass these on.

Edna: Pass them? All right.

Joe Kjar: Thank you very much.

Edna: Do you need a spoon or . . . you use your finger to stir the sugar?

(Unknown): Thanks

(Unknown): Thank you Joe.

Joe Kjar: I think you'll be cutting yourself a little thin, Don, on beer very frankly. But you won't make us unhappy if you do.

Don: Well this thing is pretty interesting sort of an audience and format. And I've been around a lot of remotes like Dar has and you can explain that even the inference that you are having a remote in a gambling casino, that there's a lot of people that don't like it.

Dale: Don, we've changed Six, I think it will be satisfactory to you. Were you in here when we talked about that? We've resolved that.

Don: Read it to me, I don't know anything about that.

Dale: Well, I haven't drafted it yet. We've resolved that. We've resolved that the problem is an economic problem. So basically, we will have the say-so on the rate cards. But we'll submit all of the rate cards to them and ask their advice and consultation. To get their expert advice to us as to whether we are too high or low. But the final economic thing has to be with us as to whether it can pay the way. Now KSL Radio will be furnished a copy of each operational log from each station, each day. I don't understand this.

Joe Kjar: Well, that's to give us an audit. Now we don't really need it each day.

(Unknown): Frankly, isn't this a routine thing that has to happen in every station Joe?

Joe Kjar: They have a log, of course.

(Unknown): Wouldn't it just be a matter of getting that to you?

Joe Kjar: Yeah. But it's a little problem for them to mail them each day. Actually what probably would be the best. Leave it . . . What we will probably do is select at random. . . . Say we'll go a month with a station. And then we'll go back and say, Now will you furnish us operational logs for such and such a day, and we'll pick random days through the previously concluded month.

Dar Dodds: Now why do you have to have that operational log?

Joe Kjar: Because, that lets us know whether or not you and we are getting treated fairly by that station.

Dar Dodds: Okay, now would there be hesitancy . . . Treated fairly in what terms? Terms of actually broadcasting?

Joe Kjar: No, in terms of spots they ran and the revenue we got.

(Unknown): They are getting paid on commission so they want to know they are getting paid properly.

Dale: Now would a station be hesitant to furnish that to you? In other words it's question of what we have here . . . should we say here . . .Should we say here that our contract with any station will obtain a right to obtain all of their logs and that we will make any that we have available to you.

(Unknown): Well they have to submit it to us, Dale.

(Unknown): This happens automatically, is that right, Don?

(Unknown): Yes, because the minute that spot appears, Don, and an announcer initials it, it is an affidavit.

(Unknown): Right.

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): Why do they have to furnish that to us?

(Unknown): Because we want to know if our spots are running.

(multiple voices)

(Unknown): It's a right granted by contract.

(Unknown): Oh, I follow you. In other words you are affidaviting . . .

(Unknown): Sure, we want to know that . . .

Joe Kjar: That's your function . . .

(multiple voices)

(Unknown): Our contract with the station though has to be Pacific Ad Arts with the station. We can't say in there that you will furnish to KSL . . .

(multiple voices)

Justin Stewart: Here's the thing I would suggest this mean, KSL will be furnished a copy of operational logs as requested.

Joe Kjar: That's good enough.

Justin Stewart: And we are going to have to have, I mean, you'll have to have, as Pacific Ad Arts, you're going to have to have this contract log to protect yourself.

Joe Kjar: Just say as requested by KSL.

Justin Stewart: As requested by KSL.

Dar Dodds: Joe, on this log thing, would you permit me the first 30 days, if this moratorium is granted to just take. . .

Joe Kjar: The first 30 days we're not even going to worry about it.

(Unknown): Well, I need a thermafax of whatever you want of your midnight to six log. It will then reflect all of the spots that they will coincide.

Joe Kjar: Sure, we'll be glad to furnish you. And here again, when you say "log" gentlemen, all we need is that portion of the all-night. We don't their whole day's log.

(Unknown): Production format will be controlled under the complete jurisdiction of KSL with the aid and advice of Herb Jepko as to production format. Now this includes advertising, doesn't it that we've bought? Now what's the terms of our . . .

Joe Kjar: No generally production format does not imply advertising. It includes the method in which that advertising is inserted, but it does not have content control. It does not imply content control.

(Unknown): Maybe we ought to say here the advertising content control is under the jurisdiction of our other contracts, is that right?

Joe Kjar: We've already said that products and/or services must be approved by Pacific Ad Arts which I think is tantamount to saying that copy is included.

(Unknown): Any contract which purchases blocks of time by Pacific with any individual station will be submitted to KSL Radio for its review and will be subject to the mutual agreement of the parties.

Joe Kjar: Now all you need to do, any contracts for the purchase of blocks of time by Pacific would be subject to the mutual agreement of the two parties.

(multiple voices)

Justin Stewart: This is the other, Joe, there were six in this one, which occurred to me as being pretty crucial to the kind of freedom that Pacific Ad Arts needs. And since your legitimate interest is, of course, in terms of the percentage that the station is going to pay you. And that will relate back to Pacific Ad Arts. In other words that will relate to (unintelligible). I think that unless there is some really good reason here, I think that Pacific Ad Arts ought to have the freedom to make its arrangements with local stations subject to . . .

Joe Kjar: All we're saying is . . .

Dale: Point of clarification here that I think will give you what you want. Any contract for the purchase of block time by Pacific with any other station will be submitted to you for its review for compliance with the terms of this agreement and for your first refusal option.

Joe Kjar: That's all you need to do. We discussed that earlier and that's fine.

(Unknown): This is the reason . . . the whole control thing seems to be over. And now we're kind of dividing the control we need and I think it's very satisfactory the way we're getting this understood.

Joe Kjar: But keep in mind, don't let them trap you on this. This is tough.

(Unknown): Who?

(Unknown): Joe, I wish you'd go over that again with me. You said the term 52 weeks. Do you mean that we should try to buy a station on a 30-day period?

Joe Kjar: Oh no.

(Unknown): Six months cancellation.

Joe Kjar: What you should do is you should write it up so that you've got some escape so that if that thing is absolutely a financial debacle and they're prostituting it and it's not the kind of station we want to tie up with, or that you want to tie up with, you can get out of it.

(Unknown): This can be done.

Justin Stewart: This ought to be done.

(Unknown): I think that when we go in, there ought to be, for example, on a one or a two-month contract.

(Unknown): Absolutely.

(Unknown): Here's what I'd like to see, try it preferably for 30 days, maybe.

Joe Kjar: Boy I wouldn't sign a 52-week on this thing for anything.

(Unknown): So that we know for you, Dar, whether it's working or not working out, you have the right to get out.

(Unknown): Negotiating a long-term contract.

(Unknown): We have submitted to (Roth?) just like this. There's nothing negotiated.

(Unknown): Good, good.

Joe Kjar: Be careful. That's where stations . . .

(Unknown): You can really get hooked.

(Unknown): That's a good caution. Let's see: "Any agreement entered into . . . KSL with any KSL personnel." Let me see what we're getting into there. . . . You have to be awful careful the way that's written.

(Unknown): What I think he means, Don, . . .

(multiple voices)

(Unknown): I know exactly what his problem is. But you are dealing with a United States of a government, really, because they absolutely write the legislation on unions. You have to be real careful out there.

Dar Dodds: Why is that, Joe?

Joe Kjar: We found that when we went up to Seattle, for example, with our boys, when IBEW and AFTRA was on the strike up there, you see. We took our boys up there. Our boys are non-union and as a result we just about got union into our shop here.

(Unknown): How can this be avoided then?

Joe Kjar: Now we don't want that. Because we're paying all of our guys way above union scale and we intend to keep it that way.

(Unknown): Well, we're not going to be asking you to send any of your personnel into any station. I could see where there could be a problem there.

Joe Kjar: The only union you've got a problem with is AFTRA. Dar can tell you more about that.

(Unknown): What I'm worried about, Joe, really is that that . . . Can you KSL and Pacific Ad Arts legally contract what you are saying there? Can you really do that? I think you've got a real problem there.

Joe Kjar: No we haven't got a problem. You've got a problem.

(Unknown): We've got a problem

(Unknown): I know. Okay.

(Unknown): What I'm wondering is how this can be solved.

Joe Kjar: Well, some AFTRA contracts are so tight, that if a guy comes in to a market . . . Say, for example, you're feeding Herb into Los Angeles, not going to come up in Phoenix at all, but in Los Angeles, San Francisco, in the big markets, their union is going to be watching what comes in there. And they may say, look your boys are union . . . Say you go to KGO, and I know that's one that we've said we don't want to go to because of its power, but if you go to KGO and KGO says . . . the union boy comes, the shop steward, or whatever, would come to KGO management and say, look you've got Herb Jepko coming in here from Salt Lake. He's not union.

(Unknown): Non union shop. You make yours a. . . You just knuckle down . . .

Joe Kjar: Your boys are all union. You either get him on a union basis or you don't air that program.

(Unknown): That engineer on that darn board, I don't think he could throw the switch.

(Unknown): Of course we couldn't bind you to anything anyway.

(Unknown): I'm going to submit this further, up to my labor man in the office, to see. I don't want to get into an unfair trade practice.

(Unknown): There's the thing that you can always get involved with.

Joe Kjar: Please understand that all we're saying here is we cannot unionize any of our men because of this agreement.

(Unknown): What would happen if . . .?

Dale: I think maybe we could revise this to say that we will not contract with any station where there are any union implications would result to station KSL.

Joe Kjar: You're going to limit yourself.

(Unknown): Well now, Dale, look at it this way. If we get this conceivably into, let's say, Seattle for a moment, which is a union market. Alright, we're piping it into Seattle and over one of their stations we're covering Seattle, but if we can get the permission of KSL for Herb to originate this program at that station sometimes, which we like to do, and feed it back down the line, the exact program, then we're really in trouble.

Dale: Joe's going to have to work that out. If Herb goes on any other station, he's going to. . .

Joe Kjar: Don't worry about that, as far as the remotes are concerned we're prepared to live with that ourselves.

(Unknown): In other words, what you're suggesting is that it is possible, that we could fall into a trap and not knowing what we are doing here. Is this what you suggested?

Joe Kjar: Yes.

(Unknown): That would give us a contract saying that anyone connected with this affiliation . . .

Joe Kjar: Yeah. Before you enter into a contract with them, find out what your union problems are going to be.

Dar Dodds: Well, Joe . . .

(Unknown): We could get ourselves into an unfair labor practice, you see, by entering into a contract that would recognize their bargaining rights in a closed shop, a union shop, and then be originating this thing from another place. It wouldn't be their problem, it'd be our problem.

Joe Kjar: That's right. What were you going to say Dar?

Dar Dodds: Well, let's go to Seattle.

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): You're unfair now because . . .

(Unknown): KIRO in Seattle . . .

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): More protection for us . . .

(Unknown): But they reverse the lines and he feeds from Seattle that night, back to KSL, which can be done, and it's exactly the same type of program. He's answering the phone calls, he's doing primarily the same thing, but from Seattle, then feeding KSL. Now isn't this . . . automatically it's going to cause problems because they won't let a live program originate from a union market. It can from here.

Joe Kjar: Well, let me say this. We have never had any problems, regardless of the markets we've been in to, on a one-time remote. And we've gone into several union shops where that has been the case. Went to Kansas City. We've been to Phoenix.

(Unknown): Ashland.

Joe Kjar: Well, but Ashland wasn't union.

(Unknown): But you weren't airing that over a local radio station.

Joe Kjar: That's true. Well, we did in Phoenix.

(Unknown): But that was the only one.

Joe Kjar: No we've done it in other places too. Before you guys came along, we've done it in other places.

Dale: I have a good labor lawyer in the office and I'll submit this to him and if he sees nothing wrong with the way it's written . . . I see Joe's point. Actually it's for our protection. We're the ones who could get in a box on this thing.

(Unknown): I know sir, that's why I brought it up.


(Unknown): I know you can't.

(Unknown): If we were involved in an unfair labor practice . . .

Don: You realize that the paragraph really is meaningless and it could foul you up.

(Unknown): No it isn't meaningless Don . . .

Don: Well, I don't think you can contract between two parties that hat that thing is implicating. I don't think that you can.

Dale: Don, we can contract with KSL that we're not going to enter into any contract with a third party that will unionize KSL. We can't do it anyway. That's all this is saying. We will not by any contract commit them to a unionization of their shop. The problem there is for us not to get into a conflict where we've got a contract with a station that's union. That all portions of this broadcast will be in union shops and then we could be caught in the middle on this.

Joe Kjar: Keep in mind too that a lot of this could be after the fact too.

(Unknown): That's right.

(Unknown): You bet.

Joe Kjar: See this is the thing. We're not only concerned with unionization, we're concerned with suits after the thing has been done, you see?

(Multiple voices)

Dale: And these union problems. So I'm not the guy that knows the answer but I've got someone in my office who does. Now, Dar, is there anything wrong with the: "KSL engineering department will determine the quality of the lines to be ordered. Stations will be fed by direct telephone line and not by any beverage antenna system."

Joe Kjar: Now I want us to add one other thing that Gordon didn't pick up there from the original draft, "beverage antenna or similar systems."

(Unknown): I don't know what a beverage antenna is.

Joe Kjar: Beverage antenna is just an extra sensitive receiver that picks up a signal and then rebroadcasts that signal without telephone lines.

(Unknown): We're not intending to do that anyway are we?

(Unknown): It's a parabolic.

(Unknown): Now Dar and Dale, one thing I'm concerned with there is that . . . I think it ought to be more specific because it could conceivably be that we would be required to furnish a line that we couldn't economically, feasibly network with.

(Unknown): Well, isn't this . . .

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): Commercial terms from the telephone company

(Unknown): Isn't this a decision of the other station as to what quality the lines is. Can we put in here that you will assist and advise us as to the quality of the line?

(Unknown): If you have got to take an A-balanced line, you couldn't afford to do it. You can't buy that kind of a line, you see?

Joe Kjar: Oh no, that's right.

(Unknown): I think it should be spelled out what you mean. Joe means, I think, that it should be a good quality line of a commercial, whatever it is, C-balanced . . .

(Unknown): Well, broadcast, we don't have to go a balanced line.

Joe Kjar: No, you don't need a balanced line at all.

(Unknown): It just says in there so broadly. Why don't we spell out what he means.

Joe Kjar: If you want, you could say it this way. You could say that KSL would require a line of quality similar to what it is presently . . . How would you word it? Originating?

(Unknown): What kind of a line do you use on the CBS network stuff, where they . . .

(Unknown): Probably a (B? D?)

(Unknown): I would imagine on talk or football games it would be a D-line, huh Joe? C if it were a musical program? But we want that quality as much as anyone does Dar.

Dar Dodds: Sure we do, but I want to spell it out there.

(Multiple voices)

final determination of quality. We certainly ought to be working with their engineering department.

Don: Absolutely. But it should be spelled . . . the other station receiving it is way more worried about what they are getting than KSL.

Joe Kjar: Not necessarily Don.

(Unknown): You certainly don't want to drop that quality.

(Unknown): I think that this is pretty elementary.

Joe Kjar: You can say this. Say it this way Dale. Lines of sufficient quality will be ordered so as to ensure no diminishing in quality or whatever of the original KSL signal.

Dale: To ensure what?

Joe Kjar: To ensure that there be no diminution of quality, or however you wish to say it, from the original KSL signal.

(Unknown): Joe, do you feel, having past experience with a broadcast line, that a Class D line is sufficient for an all-talk program?

Joe Kjar: Yeah. And there may be times when you can't get a Class D. You may have to settle for a Class E. See this is . . .

(Unknown): You mean it's something that is not available at all times?

Joe Kjar: Yeah. You're not always able to get the same quality of line. This is more the case in smaller communities.

(Unknown): The main thing we want to get in here is that you're not going to restrict us economically then in a higher-quality line than we need.

Joe Kjar: Well now, wait a minute. Wait a minute. You're looking at this just bassakwards. Because the higher the quality the line, the more you're going to pay for it.

(Unknown): That's what I mean.

(Unknown): You don't want to have to go to a high priced line.

Joe Kjar: No. All we want is the same quality delivered to that station as we're kicking out here, you see.

(Multiple voices)

Joe Kjar: I don't know. I'd have to have our engineer specify that. If you want me to have them work out a specification, I could do that.

(Unknown): I wish you would do that. Maybe you could specify it in here. What about lines of comparable quality that you are furnished into here with programs?

Joe Kjar: Then you are being obligated to something that you can't afford to pay.

(Multiple voices)

Joe Kjar: Ann, would you try get Morrie (unintelligible) on the phone for me please?

(Unknown): He said exactly what I was concerned about. I want to make sure that we are not forced economically to have a quality of line that we can't buy. An all-talk show is way different than a music show.

(Unknown): I talked to Morrie and Morrie says that a D-line is good quality, fine broadcast quality for an all-talk show.

(Unknown): Why don't we spell it out that way then?

Joe Kjar: Well, Morrie is . . . she's getting him

(Unknown): Oh, he's going to come in?

Joe Kjar: No, I'll just get him on the phone. I think that Dar is right, that that D-line is generally . . .

Curt: What do you use on sports broadcasts? That's a D-line isn't it?

Joe Kjar: We'll sometimes go C-line if we can get it Curt.


Joe Kjar: If you're on a monthly basis, sometimes you can almost pay out. Yes Ann? Thanks very much.


Joe Kjar: Morrie, can I bother you a minute? Morrie, we're trying to specify here with Don Klausee and this agreement on extending the Herb Jepko program you know to other stations. Is a D-line sufficient quality to give us the same quality that we have here? They want to specify what quality of line we are to ask them to obtain. Now I want to be. . .


Joe Kjar: Would you check with the phone company and get a specification for us on that? I guess you couldn't do it right now could you?


Joe Kjar: Give it a try. All we want to make sure Morrie is that we don't diminish the quality of the signal that we deliver to these affiliated stations.


(Unknown): No appreciable or no substantial or something like that.


Joe Kjar: Yeah. But you see we want to be careful on that other part that is not phone too. Yeah. That's want we want to make sure of. Will you check that out?

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): What was that girls name who wanted to go to work for you?

(Unknown): Jan Moffet. She's a legal secretary.

(Unknown): You're getting a specification?

(Unknown): The last paragraph, 12, certainly is essential. And that brings up a specific that I want your advice on. As I understand the FCC . . .

Joe Kjar: (to others talking) Hold on just a minute.

(Unknown): As I understand the FCC rules, and I got some advice from a Washington lawyer since I was here the last time and I have the regulations. This "four periods of the broadcast day" the network cannot preempt more than 3 hours in any one of these periods. And, of course our midnight-to-six is in one of the periods. And as I further understand it, we can allow the station to carry additional 3 hours, but they have to have call of that time. Now is this basically the way . . . Do I understand this correctly?

Joe Kjar: Run that by again.

Dale: We can't buy, on a firm basis, the full six hours of Phoenix time. We can buy three hours, pre-empt three hours of time, but we can't preempt six hours of time.

Justin Stewart: Actually, you can't preempt any hours of time.

Dale: We can on a network basis so long as they retain their control over programming. I mean they can shut the show off at any time based upon their decision that this isn't the type of program to be put over their station. But our contract with them can't control more than three hours at a time. They have to have the full call rights on the other three hours. They may take it, but we can't contractually bind them to take them.

Joe Kjar: I'd have to say that you probably know more about that than I do at this point. See we don't get into any of that with our network.

(Unknown): Because they're not on more than three hours.

(Unknown): Well, I'm just pointing this out. We do have a problem area here so our contracts might be on a three-hour basis, and then giving them the option to take the other three hours.

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): Merely to fit into the framework of your FCC rules.

Joe Kjar: You're buying the time.

Justin Stewart: I don't see how this enters into this discussion.

Joe Kjar: I really don't either, Dale.

Dale: It enters into it this way. They're getting fifteen percent of the revenue. If we come up with three-hour contracts rather than six-hour contracts, they're going to saying, why didn't you block it out for the full six hours.

Joe Kjar: No, what I'm saying is you're defining yourself as a network, but you technically are not, really.

(Unknown): We've got to get this thing into a network concept or I don't know what in the heck we've gotten into to sell to other stations.

Joe Kjar: Here again, you (unintelligible)

Justin Stewart: I think you've got a syndication, not a network.

Dale: The words your attorney used, and I agree with the way he drafted this, is that "Pacific desires to make arrangements whereby it, Pacific may sell the Herb Jepko show to other radio stations on or similar to a network basis.

Joe Kjar: Well, why don't we change that and say a "syndicated basis."

Justin Stewart: Why don't you leave it just the way it is.

(Multiple voices)

Justin Stewart: I've read the regulations too, Joe, I mean this word network is pretty damn nebulous. It's very hard to define. Frankly, you get right down to it, the licensee has the power all the time regardless of these contracts.

Joe Kjar: Well, that's right. We can throw a network out tomorrow, really.

Justin Stewart: Any time. I think this is rather an academic discussion because, really, whether we're a network, or whatever we are. It doesn't really matter. We can call ourselves a network and maybe we are something else. But I like the language that's here and I think we probably ought to go ahead and use it because he's perfectly well aware of the very nebulous nature . . .

Joe Kjar: It doesn't bother me if it doesn't bother you. But if you're going to be . . .

(Unknown): I'd like him to give us more words to shore this up.

Joe Kjar: But if you're going to execute contracts. If you're going to be scared of the word network and execute in three-hour blocks, your contracts, then I am scared of it, yeah. But I don't think you need to.

Dale: I think that we have to. I think that any radio station we contract with has to file our contract with the FCC as a network contract. This is the advice I have out of Washington, DC. That they're going to have to file it. In the situation that we are in, our contract with them, they are going to have to file, because they're buying a show.

Joe Kjar: I don't agree with you Dale and I think we need to get one more opinion on that. I don't think you're right. I don't think whoever counseled you that way is right.

Dale: He didn't counsel me on this contract. He's given me some general information on this thing.

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): Could your people?
Joe Kjar: We can check with our Washington attorney, the only thing is that it'll cost us $500 to give you a . . .

(Unknown): Wow!


(Unknown): That sounds like Peterson's office.

Joe Kjar: Tell you what, let me do. Let me have an informal telephone visit with him on this.

(Unknown): Will you do that?

Joe Kjar: I can't tonight. It's too late tonight.

(Unknown): I'm going to send this back to . . . We've got Charlie Wayland in Washington, DC advising me and I'm going to send this back to . . .

(Unintelligible) KXIV. That's your . . .

(Unknown): That's right . . .


(Unknown): He'll want to know what we have.

(Unknown): He'll want to know this basic contract.

Joe Kjar: But you see the thing is Dale, KXIV would have no more reason to have to file their contract with you, than I would have to file my contract with Earl Nightingale.

(Unknown): You're originating . . .


Joe Kjar: Yes Ann. Oh. Thank you.


Joe Kjar: (on telephone) Yes Morrie.

(Unknown): Well, it's because this is more than a three-hour show. If we sign up a radio station for more than six hours they're obliged.

Joe Kjar: C-line then, huh?

(Unknown): Well, let's take another situation; let's take the Holiday Inn. They buy a block of time.

Joe Kjar: (on telephone) Okay.

(Unknown): They buy it on our FM station, we don't have to . . .

(Unknown): No. I know, I know.

(Unknown): But they're not furnishing the programming.

(Unknown): We're in the position where we're going to contract with Phoenix.

Joe Kjar: (on telephone) Yes they are.

(multiple voices)

Joe Kjar: (on telephone) Okay, Thank you very much.

(Unknown): All they do is buy that hour and they put on the tapes that Holiday furnishes them. I've never had a chance to talk to you about this

(multiple voices)

(Unknown): . . . can't waive away his right to absolute control . . .

(Unknown): Well, okay, I, this is a muddy area.

Joe Kjar: Yes this is muddy and we'll have to clarify this then. Can I go back to your quality line? Morrie says he checked with Telco; it must be a C-quality, C-quality line to ensure the same quality that we have here. C-quality, not D. And that's the line that's been ordered in, by the way, to Phoenix. C-quality.

(Unknown): Do you have the price quotation on that? Are they the same ones we had before? $900?

Joe Kjar: Might want to double check that Dar, just to be sure.

(Unknown): Let's find out, than I think that if we specify it in here that a C-quality line generally would be acceptable under this provision.

(Unknown): Okay, now, are you going to give us the, I hate to throw a red-flag word in here, but the "exclusive" is about the best word I can think of, to go out and promote this on other stations? Or are we apt to be in competition with you going out and selling it directly to other stations? In other words can we do the job of expanding this program?

Joe Kjar: I think you could. I see no real problem there with all these other stipulations here, properly worded. Yeah, I see no problem there.

(Unknown): What you're saying is, can we go out and add other stations?

(Unknown): If this, in effect, can't be an exclusive for us to network this Herb Jepko . . .

(Unknown): What he's saying is, we certainly don't want to run into KSL salesmen attempting to network a station in competition with what we're doing. We must be your exclusive agents in terms . . .

Joe Kjar: There's only one thing that you may run into problems on, it wouldn't be with us. We'll reserve this to ourselves as far as our rep is concerned, but you're probably going to run into this rep problem, but that's outside of this really.

(Unknown): I think it really should be outside, or should it be talked about? Our last conversation, Joe, down in your office, that's one of the things that you were concerned about was being represented in markets that we were making sure that we weren't, for instance, West Coast Airlines and what's going to happen there.

Joe Kjar: But that's really the individual stations problem.

(Unknown): Is really is, isn't it?


Joe Kjar: I don't think we need to get into that. But if you wish to specify that you have exclusivity as sales agents for this network concept, or this syndicated concept with KSL, during the terms of this contract, sure. That's alright.

(Unknown): I think this gives us a little better bite into

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): When they're specifically expressing the right of . . . and spelling out this right of first refusal. I think it's implied. It didn't even occur to me that that wasn't . . .

Joe Kjar: There's one . . . go ahead Dale and finish out your items and then I've got a couple here.

Dale: I think that's all I have.

Joe Kjar: I've got a couple here. . . I did a little mathematics here. On a hundred bucks worth of time, if you have to take out agency and rep and say 30 percent salesmen commission, now that's extreme I realize that, that cuts that $100 down to $51.45. So keep that in mind when you set up your discount structure there.

(Unknown): Oh Boy.

(Unknown): That would only be the case where you're on your top national . . .

(Unknown): I think our concept is to keep all of the other commissions out of it to the extent possible. If we wind up with a national, this might be fine. But we're going to try to get out of this structure. One thing we want Pacific Ad Arts to be in the business of being an advertising agency.

Joe Kjar: Dar, is it your plan to set up double cards where it's a double card market.

Dar: Yes.

(Unknown): What does that mean?

(Unknown): National and local.

(Unknown): National and local.

(Unknown): So there would be room in the national then for the national rep?

Dar Dodds: I think it should be our option. If this is clear, we are the only ones that can allow national representation for this program. Is that right Joe? Outside of KSL, of course. In other words, you are not allowing someone in the Phoenix market, or the Seattle market, to sell spots on the Herb Jepko show, is that right?

Joe Kjar: Well, I think you're going to have to respect the individual station's national rep. You won't be able to say, I'll go to Crystal and say, Crystal you take on this syndication of Herb Jepko. In fact, I think we have to tell you right here and now, you couldn't do that. You'd avoid the national rep, unless the individual station injects the problem of the national rep here.

(Unknown): Wouldn't the local rep for each station deal with the national rep anyway? I mean, if we dealt with your rep here and they'd have to deal with the national representatives.

Joe Kjar: That's why I say it's a station-by-station basis. I don't think you'd want to say, alright, we'll shack up with a national rep of our own, and circumvent any individual station rep.

(Unknown): But Joe, by the same token, if this becomes, and which it is, a KSL property, more or less to go into other markets, then would KSL's national rep, in those other markets, feel they could sell to Phoenix, or to Seattle? It's the same show originating here.

Joe Kjar: No, no. Not at all. Not at all. Our agreements with them are that it's only advertising on KSL per se.

(Unknown): So if we respect the individual stations as far as their national representation . . .

Joe Kjar: That's all you have to worry about, I would think. I . . . there's one other thing I asked Gordon to include and I guess he forgot about it and that was this matter with these remotes, Don. We do want to have the same latitude with the remotes that we presently have.

(Unknown): That you have in your contract with us?

Joe Kjar: Yeah. That's right.

(Unknown): So that we may take. . .

(Unknown): You have the right to have a KSL remote someplace. So the only thing I'd like to do is this -- is that because of our promotion, because of our sole responsibility of this whole business, I mean, that any remotes that you people would have in mind, we must be able to have the right to know these things, to some way control it. Because we have planning out ahead, way ahead, there being . . . it really wouldn't work if you people had in the back of your mind you had someone you want to sell a remote to in an area where we had maybe already started a negotiation. Now there's a problem I thought of. In other words, I think there should be something spelled out here and a remote won't work if it is taken and done on an unplanned basis. It's got to be something that fits into where you're going, especially on, maybe a new market, where you have a new station. You sure wouldn't want a remote in Phoenix Arizona here, when you're going to go on the air down there next week. So you see now that's an extreme. It's a matter of communication. If you really and truly have got a remote, I think we should have been notified in 90 days before. . .

(Unknown): I don't know how a remote fits into this . . .

(Unknown): I don't either, but that's why we've got to take it and figure it out. See we've got back in the original contract to where KSL can continue to have . . . how many remotes a year?

(Unknown): Pacific Ad Arts . . .

(Unknown): Has six.

Joe Kjar: We may have two a month.

(Unknown): Now wait a minute, wait a minute, by gosh. There is an idea that comes to me. That does change the whole concept of these remotes, doesn't it?

(Unknown): You bet it does.

(Unknown): Because it's one thing for you to go out and sell a remote and take the profit over it where you're broadcasting it over KSL, but if we've got . . . suppose we've got twenty stations lined up, and you sell a remote to broadcast that widely, that's a pretty big . . . .

(Unknown): What do you have in mind, Joe, what do you mean by this?

Joe Kjar: Well, let's say, for example, that we want to go up to Ashland again next year, or we want to go down to Las Vegas, again. And there are many reasons other than commercial for wanting to do some of these things. Say you've got a real strong Nitestand, you see? Now Herb's going to argue for this, and I'll tell you right now, real strongly, and it's reasonable, we've found it to be very successful, not just commercially, but to support these Nitestands which provide the basic . . . For example, say you're looking at a market, and you haven't got it sowed up, so we take Herb down there, and we do a remote down there, we demonstrate what Herb can do in drawing down there. That gives you a shoe in with that station. But I do think Don's right, the basic problem is communicating so that we don't run at odds with each other on this.

(Unknown): The problem, financially, is that you an advertiser to bear to cost of the remote. Now if you're sponsoring the remote, you get the advertiser, you get the revenue off of it, but yet, we've got ten other stations that we're broadcasting and we've got to have some kind of arrangement to have those other stations broadcast the advertising you'll line up so I suppose we'd be . . .

Joe Kjar: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm sorry. See we don't contract for any advertising with this originating point. When we go, for example to the Rivera, there's no advertising run for the Rivera.

(Unknown): There isn't?

Joe Kjar: There isn't?

(Unknown): I thought you ran advertising . . .

Joe Kjar: Oh, no. All that happens is we go to this point and the only . . .

(Unknown): I don't understand about this because I don't know about this Las Vegas remote.

Joe Kjar: All that happens is that the place where we're originating considers their value in the fact that we're originating there. There's no number of spots are then are aired for that particular . . . .

(Unknown): You sell that to them? You get $2,000 from them to put the remote on in their place.

Joe Kjar: We basically get our out-of-pocket costs from them to take the show down there.

(Unknown): Herb's mention of the Rivera is Herb saying we're at the Rivera here.

(Unknown): That's advertising for them, and that's why they're willing to pay . . .

Joe Kjar: That's why they're willing to have the show come down there. Now that's not really typical, though. The more typical thing is where you've got a Nitestand up in Ashland. Ashland needs a place to meet in so they go to some convention place or some commercial place. They're meeting at that place. The only commercial is that this Nitestand is meeting at such-and-such. That's all the commercial. And that's not even guaranteed to them so many times per night. They're just there, that's all.

(Unknown): I take it Desert Hot Springs would be willing to pay you a lot more for that remote if we had this going over twenty stations, than just gong over one.

(Unknown): I think you better think this through.

(Unknown): It might be that remotes would have to be marketed better to carry some advertising.

(Unknown): That's right. It might be that we want to take advantage of that and set it up on an advertising basis to sell advertising.

(Unknown): Again, you've got to cover the expenses.

Joe Kjar: Keep in mind that's going to be awful awkward because you've got your other stations that are either carrying the advertising that is common to all stations or else they're cutting in and out for their own, you see? And that's why I don't see how you're going to be able to work it any other way than just that we're going there. Keep in mind that we still reserve to Don Co, Don Co's six per year.

(Unknown): Who is Don Co?

Joe Kjar: Pacific Ad Arts.

(Unknown): Okay.

Joe Kjar: But, Pacific Ad Arts still has those six per year.

(Unknown): How can we choose those, Joe, at our option?

Joe Kjar: Yeah, that's at your option.

(Unknown): I think in our contract it calls for our option.

(Unknown): Alright, now suppose, and this is not hypothetical this is factual, suppose I've arranged six remotes next year already and they conflict with dates that you wanted to have, but for some reason, for example the Rivera . . .

Joe Kjar: I'd say the first man with the first date gets it tied up. If you've got six dates solid lined up, set them up with us and we stay away from those dates, that's all.

(Unknown): That's sort of like a game you're playing, it's not that, but long range planning that I'd like to see established.

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): Why do you want the remotes? What if we could do a decent job of all the remotes?

(Unknown): Is there a profit center to you?

Joe Kjar: Yes, there's profit to us in that. We have profit in that. We have a profit built into that.

(Unknown): Right.

(Unknown): That's why I'm saying that this . . .

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): The thing that bothers me about this thing is the total overall picture. You taking and building a network in your strategy, your sales strategy your moving out strategy should be coordinated and a remote is something that fits into this thing. Now we have contractual rights to have six of these. How about taking and making a deal right now of if we want those that you have now, that we would be able to buy them from you on an option basis or something so that you would be able to earn that profit that you're thinking in terms of but we can control it.

Joe Kjar: If you wanted to buy them at the rate we'd normally sell them for . . .

(Unknown): What do you get, $500?

Joe Kjar: We get $500 plus expenses.

(Unknown): Your expenses of your engineer?

Joe Kjar: Our engineer, our lines and so forth. We get $500 on top of our expenses.

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): I could see how this would tie in with the whole advertising program.

(Unknown): The entire concept.

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): What Joe should want then is to be able to retain that profit center.

Joe Kjar: Also indicate in there though Dale that we would want to, again, mutually agree on these remotes.

(Unknown): Right.

(Unknown): Oh yes.

Joe Kjar: Because you may have some in mind that we just don't want to get involved in. Because I'll be very frank with you, we're going to take a long look at anything . . . at Las Vegas again.

(Unknown): Really? Didn't you feel, Joe, that that was pretty good?

Joe Kjar: It's a good show, but there was an image factor that was . . .

(Unknown): In other words you, the thing I . . .

(Unknown): I don't think that you have this opportunity now, Dar has, and you back me up and see if this is correct. I have been on a whole batch of remotes and I tried to get the flavor and the feeling (unintelligible). In the listening of the program and the editing of it afterwards, the mail that comes in . . . I have a feeling that we would not be serving the image that we are trying to build if would have remotes constantly in a . . . gambling establishment.

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): Nothing more should be done like that.

(Unknown): I, I, I haven't really aired this with you because I've been analyzing it. And I don't want to see that sort of thing. I want this program and this format to be in convention centers and places where there's . . . Why in fact Desert Hot Springs was a beautiful set up.

Joe Kjar: Who is this I?

(Unknown): I?

(Unknown): Joe Kjar: Let's say "We."


(Unknown): Okay you got me on that one.

(Unknown): Well done Joe.

(Unknown): Touché buddy.

(Unknown): We.

(Unknown): You get the flavor of what I'm trying to say. I know I understand you now, you've got six of these things, that's a possible three grand a year. What I'd like to write in, plus your expense to get it paid for, I'd like to write in . . .

Joe Kjar: Wait, wait, wait. No, no. We've got two a month.

(Unknown): We've got the six.

Joe Kjar: We have two a month.

(Unknown): They have two a month.

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): You may have first option on any remotes that we may

(Multiple voices)

Dar Dodds: Now is this on an accrued basis? In other words if the month of January was bad, you did not hold your two remotes.

(Unknown): It's just the way he said it, we can have the option on any remotes . . .

Joe Kjar: Dar has a point. It's an accrued basis. If we don't have any in January, we may run two or three or four in February.

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): Oh, Joe . . .

(Unknown): Have you ever done four remotes in one month?

Joe Kjar: We have, yes.

(Unknown): What do you mean by we?


Joe Kjar: We have had our men involved in something like that?

(Unknown): Joe, your men, if you'll let me be blunt again, have darn little to do with setting up a remote. When we stay up 36 hours during the show and after with banquets.

Joe Kjar: I know that.

(Unknown): All anyone here has to do is to go tap in and go to bed.

(Unknown): They're not going to do that.

(Unknown): Wait a minute.

Joe Kjar: Well, let's not get into that. That's a whole other can of worms. Our engineers don't tap in and go to bed.

(Unknown): Do you want me to recite three examples that I know where they did?

(Multiple voices)

Joe Kjar: First off Dar, Herb Jepko is not going to want to do four a month. I'll tell you that right now and he's not going to agree to do four a month.

(Multiple voices)

Dar Dodds: I think you're selling . . . this is an important point that we've always gone around. We're talking about a man's life. And this man is so wrapped up in this. I have seen his emotional structure in the last two weeks just almost go to pot, Joe. Now we did five remotes, one each week for five solid weeks, didn't we? Because Herb needed the money and you needed the money.

Joe Kjar: No, we didn't do five, Dar. Didn't do five. We've never done five in a row.

Dar: We did Nebraska. We did the Ramada Inn. We did Carson City, we did Desert Hot Springs, we did Phoenix Arizona, in that exact order.

Joe Kjar: I'm sorry we didn't Dar, and I've have to go back and check that for you and show you we did not. But here again we're getting . . .

(Unknown): Now wait a minute. Now gosh damn it Joe, let's take and straighten this out. You're reputing that man's word in front of us. Let's straighten it out. We did five and it's a hell of a damn way to have to make a living. Now why do you say we didn't?

Joe Kjar: Let me say this . . .

(Unknown): Sincerely, Joe, why do you say we did not?

Joe Kjar: Because I don't think we did. I'd have to check our records.

(Unknown): Well we did. I want it clarified right here in front of all of us.

Joe Kjar: Well, let me say this guys, there's nobody here that has any greater sense of what Herb is going through here, possibly only Justin.

Dar Dodds: You'd better include me. I've watched him break down in my office two nights out of the week, Joe.

Joe Kjar: Dar, I've been with him for four years on this. You've been with him for about a month now, two months maybe.

Dar Dodds: Joe, honestly again I think I've been closer to the man in two months than you have in four years.

Joe Kjar: Well, we're getting off the . . .

Dar Dodds:: I know, but don't you think this is important. We're talking about a man's life, Joe. Without him we have no contract. We have no program. We have to protect him to the point where this cannot continue to be a friction.


Dar Dodds: This is important and it should be in that category.

(Multiple voices)

Joe Kjar: Don? There's a long distance call for you.

(Unknown): This is something that Justin is going to have to negotiate with Herb and you all.

(Unknown): Actually I'm completely lost on this deal. It's a simple thing to figure out . . . we're only talking about KSL and Herb and Don Klausee, but when we start the multiple problems of other stations and the economic factor of it and all this, it really is pretty tough.

Joe Kjar: Well let me say this. We have not been in any single case, we have not been the instigator of the remotes. Now you've got to understand that Dar. We have never instigated a remote.

Dar Dodds: Alright, Joe, but let's go right back to your statement. You are entitled to two a month or the profit there from.

Joe Kjar: I know it, but it has always been done at the instigation of Herb.

Dar Dodds: Well, shall we take a step forward. Let's take 1968, Joe, we in essence are committing ourselves, through Herb, to two remotes a month.

Dale: No we're not.

Dar Dodds: He said they're entitled to that or profit, Dale.

Dale: No there's no arrangement with Herb in this that there's going to be two a month. There is an arrangement in the contract with Pacific Ad Arts that there will be not more than two a month and that we have the right to preempt a quarter of them. That's all our contract says.

Dar Dodds: Did I misinterpret this Joe? Did I misunderstand you?

Joe Kjar: Yes you did Dar. You need to look at the contract that we have with Pacific Ad Arts. And here again, you're looking at us as the ones that drove Herb out on these. We didn't! Herb instigated these.

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): There's no question about it. He feels like it's important to go out. And if he does work like a dog and it kills him. I think we all agree on that.

Joe Kjar: I'm simply telling you that Herb feels that these remotes are kind of important in special instances.

Dar Dodds: Sure he does, Joe, and I'm not trying to blame as I say, his present emotional state on just the remotes. I'm talking about all of the things that continue.

Justin Stewart: Let me say this, Joe and Mr. Curtis both, the settlement of these contracts on a satisfactory basis is terribly important to Herb's health. There's no question in my mind.

Joe Kjar: Why do you think we accepted this Don Co contract? That's one of the main reasons I accepted the Don Co contract was it would solidify and make secure.

Justin Stewart: We have the same motives here. The question is only that we get it resolved in a way that will protect Herb's health, frankly. What he needs is to have the protection of contracts that do give him protection.

Joe Kjar: Let me say this, Justin, very frankly, he is not being protected down where he is working right now, adequately.

(Unknown): I agree with that.

Joe Kjar: He's just . . . It's stupid what's going on down there at the headquarters.

(Unknown): In what way?

(Unknown): Mostly because these contracts are very much in his . . .

Joe Kjar: What I mean by that is he's intruded on too much that's all.

(Unknown): That's right. No question about it.

Dale: It's my opinion that to the extent that Dar and this organization can do its job, to the extent to which KSL can do the job they're talking about today, we can some of these burdens off of Herb. And this is the importance of having these contractual arrangements arrived at. And I think this is the only thing that's going to take these burdens off. We can convince Herb to keep his nose out of the business part of it and be responsible for the program and let us go about the business affairs that we are negotiating today. That's my opinion on it. And I'll talk to you at length about this after we get out of here but I don't think that this . . . I know you are concerned Dar, I know it.

Dar Dodds: I'm concerned, Dale, only to this, and it does involve everyone in this meeting. Either I should move out of the chair I'm sitting in, or Mr. Kjar and everybody here should recognize me that I can make certain decisions. This reflects on Herb. Herb has to wait to get a hold of you, or Don or someone, if I'm only a figurehead of saying yes Joe I will. Yes Mr. Curtis I will. Yes Dale I will.

Joe Kjar: Well, now look, Dar, what you guys work out on your end, that's your business.

Dar Dodds: Well, Joe, it still depends on you recognizing me. It's just that simple.

Joe Kjar: Recognizing you in terms of what, Dar?

Dar Dodds: Pacific Ad Arts, period.

Joe Kjar: We recognize you as an agency representative here. Has there ever been any question on that Dar?

(Multiple voices)

Dar Dodds: There is in my mind, Joe. I haven't received one, one carbon copy of correspondence in two months.

Joe Kjar: On what?

Dar Dodds: From Ray Fritch on the meeting that we would adhere to your rate card national and local on KSL. And I'm certain there must be more that comes out of this office, or that must involve Don or Herb, or Pacific Ad Arts.

Joe Kjar: If that's the case, we'll correct that immediately. That was an oversight. But you heard Don say that he hasn't seen it yet. It probably hasn't gone out yet then Dar. But there's no intention, Dar, to overlook you as Pacific Ad. Arts rep here. Now understand, understand we don't know how deeply entrenched you are with Wick, Nitecaps International, et al, over which we have no control. Now you understand that don't you?

Dar Dodds: Surely. I'm only asking Pacific Ad Arts because all of this again does concern Herb. And I have to perhaps apologize for letting my feeling toward a man that I can understand. I've been down here and worked all night with him. I've been in the business this long to know how these things, just in friction . . .. you can't do a good show if you have to worry about the business end of it. That's all. And you know that, Joe.

Joe Kjar: Don't you think that I know that Dar?

Dar Dodds: You bet I think you know it. But I don't think we're giving complete cognizance to how much Herb feels this. This is why he can't sleep some of the time, Joe.

Joe Kjar: I realize that Dar.

Justin Stewart: We're trying to get these things arranged . . .

Dar Dodds: Alright, Justin, I'll quit right there.

Joe Kjar: But I'm simply saying, gentlemen, those problems have to be considered outside of this office.

Justin Stewart: That's right.

Joe Kjar: They're not really our . . . We anticipate . . We know the problems. I'm as keenly aware of those problems as you are Dar. And I've gone through a lot closer nervous breakdowns with Herb than you have, I'll tell you that right now.

(Unknown): You see, Dar, there are things that we've got to get clarified here. Well, Herb's in the employment of KSL. They have a concern for him, and his time and how it's spent. And when Joe says that the present situation, how did you put that, is not a good one for Herb, and I said I agree. And I want to drop it right there. I presume what he's talking about is that he spends half of his life putting on the program and the other half of his lifeworrying about the business.

Joe Kjar: Poring tea for the visitors down there. That sort of crap. You've got to get him out of that!

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): You've got to get this thing structured so that he can put on his program, and that's the extent of his responsibilities.

Joe Kjar: Now there's one other thing here . . . That's exactly what I mean, Dale, but at the same time, gosh, I spend hour upon hour with Herb as has Curt, as has Arch, reassuring this man. Trying to ease his insecurities. Trying to get him to take time off to go for a weekend with his wife when he doesn't have to worry about this crap. But you can only ask a man to do that. You can't tell him to. You can't make his mind forget it. That's up to him.

Justin Stewart: I think we're moving here in the direction here of clarifying many of these problems.

(Unknown): I do too Justin.

Justin Stewart: I think that so far negotiations have been excellent. I think we've understood each other, so we've made substantial progress in the thing. I think, as a matter of fact, I hope, Dale, you've got things in mind, because I've got a meeting I've got to go to.

Joe Kjar: There is one other thing before you go Justin, just a short thing here, keep in mind this one thing: time differentials. If you go to the west coast, and depending on whether this area stays Daylight Savings, or there can be one and two hour differentials. And if you go east, even more so. Now how do you handle those in terms of origination? First off, let me, Dar's already referred to it here and that's a very strong point, to ask a man to do much more than six hours of this type of programming per night is almost a physical impossibility.

(Unknown): So if this means we have a four-hour program because of the differential that's what we're stuck with/

Joe Kjar: Yeah. I think you have to anticipate that.

Justin Stewart: I think that this is right. I think that we've got to live with the realities of (Unintelligible).

(Unknown): Dar, I want to make sure that you don't think that I am taking against you and taking someone else's side in this other interchange that happened here. I'm not at all. I think that we've got a problem here that's good to get out on the table. But I didn't want you to think that I was cutting you off or interfering with you because I know the frustration you're going through and what you're trying to do as Don's representative of Pacific Ad Arts. So I didn't want you to feel that I was trying to cut you off. But I think that we've got a problem here that if we're going to get solved and I didn't want you to think that I was speaking against you. And I wanted to say that before I left here.

(Unknown): Joe, not to dwell on this, but our dates, Lincoln Nebraska the 6th of October; Ramada the 13th, Carson City the 20th, Desert Hot Springs the 27th, and Phoenix November 3rd.

(Unknown): You're going to be tied up in a meeting at 6:30.

(Unknown): For how long?

(Unknown): All night

(Unknown): All night? It sounds like a meeting that might be fun.

(Unknown): It is. Come on over.

(Unknown): It's the Credit Union Christmas Party.

Joe Kjar: Dar, if you're right, I'll apologize, don't worry about it.

Dar Dodds: You know, I don't need an apology. I'm just sure of those because that was a blitzkrieg to me Joe.

(Unknown): See you a little later, tomorrow morning.

(Unknown): I was trying to come down to the office in the morning. But I'm going to have a secretary down there.

(Unknown): Well, you've got a secretary over there and I'll get a hold of her.

(Unknown): If we can get a secretary down either at your office or my office in the morning, then we could go ahead and draft these up. But I'm not going to be worth much tonight.

(Unknown): I intend as soon as we leave here to go out and draft.

(Unknown): Get it while they're fresh in mind, I don't think we have any trouble getting them. You've got to see Gordon Afflek in the morning too, see? With this contract as I understand it.

Joe Kjar: Yes. He's planning on it. Are you going to get a draft tonight?

(Unknown): That's what we're working out; I'm gong to try to, yes.

Joe Kjar: If you get a rough draft tonight . . . where are you staying Dale?

Dale: The uh . . . what's the name of the motel?

(Unknown): Roadway Inn.

Joe Kjar: Roadway? Let me give you my home number, could I? 295-6444. If you get it drafted anytime tonight where we could pick it up either tonight or tomorrow morning, let me know, will you?

(Unknown): Alright, I'll call you as soon as I have some type of draft.

Joe Kjar: Now if it's more convenient, if you get it drafted in time, just meet with Gordon Afleck on it tomorrow morning, we'll be in tough with Gordon, and if it's necessary for us to be there with Gordon, we'll do that.

Justin Stewart: I don't even know where Herb's contract is, the original of it. I guess you still have it?

Joe Kjar: We still have it, yes.

Justin Stewart: Now there was some intermediations that I called Gordon about.

Joe Kjar: Gordon told me about them.

Justin Stewart: Did he give tem to you?

Joe Kjar: I think he did.

Justin Stewart: Because the copy that I had I was going to use . . . the girl messed it up.

(Unknown): Be careful.

Justin Stewart: so they've got to be put on your copies so that they can be initialed, and then maybe you can make a photocopy of it or something however is the best to do that.

Joe Kjar: Now wait a minute, did we give that back to Herb?

Justin Stewart: He only had the (unintelligible) copy when I was down there, I think. Now that (thin?) copy is down.

(Unknown): If you don't have it, he must have it.

Joe Kjar: Here it is.

Justin Stewart: I don't have it.

(Rustling paper)

Joe Kjar: Now maybe he did not.

Justin Stewart: Yeah.

Joe Kjar: Do those represent what you had in mind?

Justin Stewart: Yeah.

Don: Gentlemen, I'm sorry that I was absent twice, and I'm not sure what is the decision here as far as our timing here? In other words . . .

(Unknown): I'm going to a draft off tonight of the things . . .we've changed numerous things here. We've taken this control concept and we've put in KSL. . .

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): termination provisions . . .

(Unknown): What I'm trying to say is that, are we going to be able to put this thing together and get this program at (unintelligible).

(Unknown): Yep.

(Unknown): On a thirty-day basis.

(Unknown): That's all I want. Absolutely

(Unknown): There's no reason why we can't on a thirty-day basis go into Phoenix on a thirty-day basis.

(Unknown): Dar, you've got this and it's okay? It's okay with you? Do you understand this? I'm sorry, gentlemen, I was gone twice tonight. What I'm trying to say is there any problem here? Can we air this program Sunday night with this thirty-day situation?

Joe Kjar: I think we are all right. I think we're close enough to everything that . . . Reducing this to . . .I think now we can do it in a final agreement, can't we?

Justin Stewart: Actually, we're pretty close to it.

(Unknown): I prefer to see it left on a thirty day.

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): What I'm trying to say . . . I don't want to make us, any of us, try to do this today and tomorrow.

(Unknown): That's what I'm concerned about. I want to check on this labor union provision. I want to have Wayland Norton in Washington DC look over and advise us is there any words we can put in here to strengthen our position as to what . . . whether we're a network or a syndicate. I want him to talk a look at that problem. And you're going to call your attorney and get any concepts you have. So I think the thirty-day concept is fine to give us a change to iron out any of these peripheral problems.

(Unknown): Then we're understanding, we're going to go ahead on this if there are no peripheral problems and extend this into a longer-term contract.

Joe Kjar: I think Gordon would agree to our just saying verbally now, we're okay to go Monday morning.

(Unknown): And during this thirty day period there may come up some other problems that we don't even . . .

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): As long as we men here understand this together, we can work it out.

Joe Kjar: It would be good if we could have an interim thirty day agreement set up.

(Unknown): This is what I referred to a little while ago when I said we had a multitude of problems about this brokerage. The problems there came up in the first thirty days and then we had them ironed out. I'm glad there is a problem resolved and we can very well have the same thing happen here.

(Unknown): I think Joe just said what I was wanting to say. You want something reduced to writing here between now and Monday?

Joe Kjar: Something that would represent an interim draft, at least.

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): Can we take and prepare this between now and Sunday? Are you available?

(Unknown): I'm going to get this prepared tonight, Don. I can have it typed tonight. I've got Joe's home phone and I'll call you tonight if we get it off tonight. Otherwise, we'll take it to their attorney first thing in the morning.

Joe Kjar: If necessary, we will meet with you and our attorney tomorrow.

(Unknown): That's the thing that I was hoping for.

(Unknown): Afleck is available at 9:00 am tomorrow?

Joe Kjar: 9:00 am tomorrow.

(Unknown): You missed several parts here that we have changed. I'm sure they'll be to your satisfaction without going through them all again now. The only thing that I see as a potential bottleneck to a long-term agreement is the term of the agreement and the cancellation provision. That's the only area that . . .

(Multiple voices)

(Unknown): You've never resolved this yet.

(end of recording)


compliation copyright (c) 2008

Joseph G. Buchman, Ph.D

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